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  • This topic has 17 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 3 weeks ago by CamZ.
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  • #3709
    reflux1
    Participant

    FOR DISCUSSION PURPOSES ONLY. NOT AN ENDORSEMENT.

    With its complex blend of organic and amino acids, AgroBest Agro Chelate is designed to chelate and sequester elemental ions in spray and irrigation water, and can also act as a buffering agent!

    When Tank-mixed, this is a powerful additive to foliar nutrition sprays making major and minor elements more available! Improves spray solutions containing hard water by chelating unwanted ions.

    Got something else in mind? We have a wide range of Gardening products available!

    Features
    Major and minor elements are made more available when Agro Chelate is tank mixed, making it a powerful additive to foliar nutrition sprays.
    Agro Chelate improves spray solutions with hard water by freeing spray water of unwanted ions such as bicarbonates and chlorides.
    Agro Chelate cleans spray tanks and nozzles between sprays and assists in the removal of build up of copper and other metals in spray tanks and associated machinery.
    Agro Chelate can be injected into trickle or dripper water to assist in the acidification of root zone water bells and the release of iron, phosphorous, calcium and other soil and waterborne nutrients.
    Agro Chelate is particularly useful in hard bore water and river water with high levels of free colloidal matter in suspension.
    When used as a regular water additive, Agro Chelate gradually cleans irrigation lines.

    a buffering agent,  amino acids, not only micro nutes,  but chelatating all nutes as well,  this to good to be true yes,  ph perfect has nothing on this shit,  at the least it would be the best ph down you can get right

    i must be missing something here

     

     

    #3716
    CamZ
    Moderator

    Beware bold claims. Third party testing is king. There is no product verification in this space. Chelating agents are great, but a simple fulvic/humic acid will do the same work. Does this product have any backing for these claims?

    #3727
    reflux1
    Participant

    your probably right,  i guess what i realy want to know,  is,  can major nutes be Chelated as well,  iv seen micro and secondry nutes being chelated before,  but not major nutes

    the other thought is,  i have heard this stuff being used as a acid,  with the question being,  if it is acid,  maybe is could be a great ph down,  as its probably be more beneficial for the plnt, than regular ph down

    #3728
    CamZ
    Moderator

    Yes, major nutrients can be chelated and are avaliable if you want them. It’s far less important to due so though because they are the most abundant component in a given mix, whether synthetic or organic.

    I doubt that it would be any stronger of a ph down than humic or fulvic acids and would not suggest using it for that due to expense of use.

    #3730
    reflux1
    Participant

    your saying all nutes are more available in the presents in humic or fulvic acids,  meaning are they also a Chelate ajents as well,  or are they of simular in action, as in, they also piggy back the nutes along, making them also disolve better in water, which intern making them also more available to plants

    #3733
    CamZ
    Moderator

    So, chelating is the process of binding elements in order to increase their uptake potential and help stabilize them on a molecular level to prevent the formation of insolulable compounds. Humic and fulvic acids chelate by stabilizing ions to prevent the exchange of electrons between elements, thus keeping them in a solulable form rather than allowing them to form insolulable compounds. An easy example of this process is iron oxide. Iron oxide is insolulable in water. This means that a nonchelated iron put in water would react with the oxygen in the water to form iron oxide a.k.a. rust. There are further implications to this like the fact that iron oxide formation means that the potential hydrogen a.k.a. ph of the solution would then change. This becomes very important for liquid fertilizer because there are often several elements in solution that want to react with one another simultaneously. To prevent this, manufacturers have separate parts and sometimes compatible elements are bound together for stabilization, such as nitrogen and calcium, or sulfur and magnesium. It is possible to nano-chelate things like nitrogen by stabilizing its molecular structure during crystalization. Humic acid consists of larger particles, while fulvic acid contains smaller ones. As a chelating agent, fulvic acid is better due to its molecular size. It is small enough to be drawn in through the roots and leaves. Fulvic acid exists within humate and is extracted directly from it. Fulvic acid is essentially a more refined version of humic acid, where all larger particles are removed. Depending on your style of growing, humic acid may be acceptable, but fulvic acid is always okay, even in dwc. The issue with humic acid is that it’s too large, thus must be processed before its useful. This is a good thing in most situations because it gives bacteria and fungi something to break down, but in “dead res” hydro it can be insoluble. Idk if you have stash blend already, but it has humic acid already. If you want only fulvic then check out something like mr fulvic. Yes, humic and fulvic acid are both excellent chealators.

    #3769
    reflux1
    Participant

    sorry about the late responce iv just been dragged to hell and back

    this is great stuff for someone that dont no about this,  this is gold, i wont grow without them now i know just how great they are,  now you have pointed me in the right directon,  iv researched this good,  i love how its all made from nature, 2 questons i do have

    1- will they also tranfer nutes to the leaves when folar feeding as well

    2- i read the chelates encapsulate the nutes and then transfer the nutes up to the cell walls then seperate and then go back to the nute resevour only to chellates another nute,  how cool is this, is it realy true

    thanks again man,  theres much data in the post above, iv learned more good shit from you, than years of reserch,  you realy are gold i cant thank you enough

    #3773
    CamZ
    Moderator

    I appreciate the kind words. I don’t believe they work in that way. I’m pretty sure they get stored in the plant cells once they are uptaken. Once in the cells they are utilized to form secondary metabolites.

    Only fulvic acid is useful in foliar. Humic acid is too large to enter the leaves. Not sure if I answered your question correctly.

    #3782
    reflux1
    Participant

    thetic chelates — EDTA, DTPA and EDDHA — only stay bound to the micronutrient ions until the point at which they enter your plants’ cells. Once this occurs, the plant unbinds the chelator from the nutrient and releases it back into the hydroponic solution, where it becomes free to chelate another nutrient and escort it into the plant for absorption.

    The same concept is true of natural chelators. Fulvic and humic acids are not absorbed into the plant — they are released upon escorting the micronutrient ions into the plant. However, amino acids are absorbed via plant tissues, which is why it’s important to have a range of chelators in your grow; if the plant gets too full of amino acids, it may not have room to absorb all the micronutrients it needs to thrive

    #3783
    reflux1
    Participant

    another paper that i found that i thought was a good read,  it goes on to saying how efective the latest chelating agent is,  but that is not main streem yet becouse of the higher price in making (EDDHA)

    Ethylenediaminetetraacetate (EDTA) is the most common chelating agent found in synthetic fertilizers. Like other synthetic chelates, EDTA is an alien compound to the plant and is therefore not absorbed by the plant. When the chelated element (remember it’s encapsulated) is required, the plant will remove the element, for example iron, form the chelate and absorb the element. However, since the chelating agent is foreign to the plant, it will give up the chelating agent (EDTA) back into solution where it is free to chelate other positively charged elements. EDTA has four points of connection to the elements it chelates. Different chelates have varying numbers of points of connection. In some situations four points of connection may hold the element too tightly, where in other growing situations, it may not hold it tight enough.

    For example, EDTA is better suited to slightly lower than neutral pH levels. Iron often becomes deficient at higher pH values such as those typically associated with rockwool or mineral soils.

    Diethylenetriaminepentaacetate (DTPA) is a chelating agent better suited to high pH levels. As the chemical name suggests, it has five (penta, ie. Pentagram) points of connection to the element it chelates. DTPA is more costly than EDTA and is less soluble so it is found in smaller quantities than EDTA in most synthetic fertilizer formulations.

    Several studies suggest that ethylenediaminedihydroxy-phenylaceticacid (EDDHA) is that superior synthetic chelating agent. Its relatively high cost prohibits it from being added to many synthetic fertilizer formulations. In a recent study conducted by the Research Station for Floriculture and Glasshouse Vegetables (Netherlands) it was demonstrated that plants perform better, even under adverse conditions when the primary source of iron is chelated by EDDHA. In the experiment, chrysanthemums were grown aeroponically, and a portion of the plants were inoculated (infected) with a root disease (pythium). Only four percent of the plants infected with pythium demonstrated chlorosis (yellowing of leaves associated with iron deficiency) when supplied with EDDHA. In comparison, 35% of the plants supplied with DTPA became chlorotic, and 18% of the plants supplied with HEDTA demonstrated chlorosis.

    As a result, the dry weights of plants supplied with EDDHA were significantly higher in both infected and uninfected plants. An additional benefit found in tissue analysis showed that the plants supplied with EDDHA were able to absorb 2X the levels of zinc than the plants supplied with HEDTA and DTPA. This is significant to our purposes because zinc (and iron) is often locked out in the later part of flowering due to excessive phosphorous levels. Ever notice how yellow plants can get as harvest approaches

    #3785
    CamZ
    Moderator

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>That is pretty interesting. I would like to see a plant tissue analysis for these compounds with consumables. Perhaps their molecular size is too large to be uptaken by the roots. Otherwise, they would be sequestered into plant tissue and ingested.</p>

    #3792
    reflux1
    Participant

    with these precrsors being so good i guess the next thing is how much and what to use  i have this product laying around

    Green Planet Liquid Weight is a blend of simple and complex carbohydrates with triacontinol, yucca extracts, bio-available amino acids, ascorbic acid and low molecular weight humic acid. Beneficial carb sources support both your plant directly and act as a food source for the microbial life in the root zone. This leads to an increased absorption of essential nutrients and growth stimulants such as triacontanol. Fulvic acid helps chelate and elicit a hormone like response that increases the permeability of the root membranes allowing easier nutrient uptake. Liquid Weight has natural surfactants including yucca. Ascorbic Acid is responsible for many of the processes in plant growth and maturity, supports rapid cell growth, protects the plant from the harmful effects of UV light and dramatically increases the resin and essential oil content of the flowers. Liquid Weight is the premier flowering carbohydrate super supplement.
    can anyone  please tell me, if this is the kinda what i want in  a veg hydro grow,  its a flowering product,  im already have triacontinol and microbes on hand as well, can i do better than the above product to chelate my nutes

     

    #3793
    reflux1
    Participant

    i read some Amino acids are smallest chelated out there

    arginine
    5.5%
    Induces flowering and root development
    Aspartic Acid
    7.6%
    Germination enhancer
    Glutamic Acid and Alanine
    21%
    Chlorophyll production
    Serine
    5%
    Stomata regulation for plant water use
    Glycine
    19%
    Chelate action for up taking other nutrients
    Histidine
    1.8%
    Helps in drought resistance
    Threonine
    3%
    Helps in water stress
    Proline
    8%
    Helps in water stress and increasing pollens
    Tyrosine
    2%
    Manages plant fluids and pollination
    Valine
    4%
    Seed protection and seedling boost
    Methionine
    2%
    Helps in steady ripening
    Isoleucine
    3%
    Salt stress resistance and detoxification
    Phenylalanine
    3%
    Lignin production for stronger cell walls
    Lysine
    5.2%
    Chlorophyll synthesis
    Taurine
    2%
    Moisture absorption and high production

     

    this looks like a hell of a product maybe the best iv found

    #3795
    CamZ
    Moderator

    I believe the L form is the only avaliable form if I remember correctly.

    #3796
    reflux1
    Participant

     

    may i ask what nute program you use

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